$20 -> $1000 6d6h47

Originally Posted by The Bean Counter

I want my money back

Peeling 86s is fine. Check jam or check call and getting it in on good turns both seem ok. I think when villain cbets off this stack though UTG when the flop hits your BB. peeling range, you probably don’t have a lot of fold equity.

PS: opening KTo can’t be good.

I was surprised how meh the standard was tbh. I didn't see anyone do anything ridiculous post flop but people opened so much crap in early positions it surprised me.

I also won a JJ vs AKs spot earlier on in the tournament.

CO opens, BTN 3bets I am in the SB with JJ and jam, CO folds BTN calls with AKs I win. Fun.

I should look into playing more tournaments, standard seems unremarkable and I'd be playing a lot lower. I'd need enough volume to be playing ~6 at once though, just one was boring.

Pokerstars font in the place where you type in your bet size isn't scaling with table size for some reason. funfunfun

I think given eff stacks we just fold the 68s. I know it sucks, but we have so little implied odds post flop, and ICM considerations too probably, plus we're oop, I think it's a clear fold. Hand is butchered post flop too, we should call flop, his bet is puny and gives us great odds. If he jams we're in a horrible spot, when we had chance to peel cheaply. As played c/f turn since we have very little fold equity and no longer have implied odds to draw even if the money always goes in. This shove gets called nearly always considering he b/c'd flop with a <20bb stack, even JT probably sighcalls. I don't see what he has that he can fold.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I think given eff stacks we just fold the 68s. I know it sucks, but we have so little implied odds post flop, and ICM considerations too probably, plus we're oop, I think it's a clear fold. Hand is butchered post flop too, we should call flop, his bet is puny and gives us great odds. If he jams we're in a horrible spot, when we had chance to peel cheaply. As played c/f turn since we have very little fold equity and no longer have implied odds to draw even if the money always goes in. This shove gets called nearly always considering he b/c'd flop with a <20bb stack, even JT probably sighcalls. I don't see what he has that he can fold.

We are so far away from the money that ICM doesn't really matter all that much. It's not even close to being a fold pre-flop, we don't need implied odds when we have straight up odds. Calling the flop seems silly so short and is likely pretty bad as we can't really be folding and we're OOP. Shoving the flop is what I should have done but at least what I did let's villain make some pretty large mistakes which is good.

I wish we still had some proper good mtt players here because I disagree with you strongly.

How do you have direct odds to call pre flop? We're oop against a short stack, our hand is likely to under-realise its equity since we're easily pushed off most flops, even some where we take the lead. I mean do you call flop on AQ6? We also have to ask what we represent when we raise. Are you raising a set here? Or do you give his bluffs a chance? We have no overpairs, since we surely 3b JJ+, while our weak Tx isn't getting called by worse. So we rep AT, and he's not folding JT with that stack.

We might fold out his AK/AQ/AJ/KQ on flop, but then again we might not. Further, when he has overcards, we're racing with fantastic odds, we might get a free river, and can bluff when we do and it bricks. We have so much more playability when we call. Raising just commits ourself to the pot with no fold equity when we're always behind. I don't see why we want to do that.

I might be wrong to fold pre flop, but it's at least close. There's nothing wrong with overfolding to a short stack, and these are the kind of hands we trim from our range when we tighten up.

...but at least what I did let's villain make some pretty large mistakes which is good.

What large mistake do you think he can make when you raise? If we're talking about exploitable mistakes with regards to your respective ranges, then sure. But if you're talking about specifically this hand, well he can only make a mistake by folding, and we don't know he does this even with AK.

I think raising this flop with an open ender is a pretty big mistake. I would much prefer you do this with a gutshot or ace high with a bdfd, something you have no problem letting go of when he continues and doesn't make any money by calling.

Fwiw I would snap call pre and c/r flop allin if villain had a bounty on his head. He doesn't, does he? Not in the Mill?

The reason we are getting good enough to call pre is because it's 17%. So even if we are struggling to realise our equity postflop that's completely fine because we don't need to realise it all. You're also wrong in the fact that such short stacks actually help us realise our equity because we GII so often. If you're playing really badly postflop and just folding unless you hit 688 then that's the problem not the call pre.

The big mistake that the player can make is folding to such a small raise when we are so short and it's so easy to realise equity, something that is probably reasonably common given it sounds like you do the same. I should have just GII. You're also probably playing this spot far too ively if you're calling so much OOP with such short stacks.

I think the issue you're having is overvaluing your tournament life so far away from the money, it's higher variance but much higher EV.

The long and short of it is the person who is probably better than us both at tournaments (bean) thinks it's good. I'm more than happy to listen to anyone who wants to tell me it's bad if they give their reasons.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Fwiw I would snap call pre and c/r flop allin if villain had a bounty on his head. He doesn't, does he? Not in the Mill?

No.

The reason we are getting good enough to call pre is because it's 17%. So even if we are struggling to realise our equity postflop that's completely fine because we don't need to realise it all.

Ok. I certainly have less of a problem pre flop than post flop.

You're also wrong in the fact that such short stacks actually help us realise our equity because we GII so often.

We're not planing on getting it in with a pair, are we? How often are we really geting it in here? How often are we drawing when we do?

If you're playing really badly postflop and just folding unless you hit 688 then that's the problem not the call pre.

Obviously not. I'm more than happy to call this pre when eff stacks are deeper, but against a short stack that we cover by 8bb I just think it's optimistic. But like I say, I could be wrong to fold pre.

The big mistake that the player can make is folding to such a small raise when we are so short and it's so easy to realise equity, something that is probably reasonably common given it sounds like you do the same.

He's not folding once he cbets flop, and neither am I. I fold oop pre, not ip post.

You're also probably playing this spot far too ively if you're calling so much OOP with such short stacks.

On the contrary, I think you're playing these spots too aggresively. I don't have a c/r range here. He doesn't have many draws, and I want my range to be balanced. For sure I'm gonna c/c a set here, and I've no problem doing so with AT too.

I'd actually be delighted to see a bet of this size, because if he potted we'd be forced to fold. This is the problem with calling hands like 86s pre oop vs a 20b shortstack.. it's much easier for villain to price us out of our draws.

I think the issue you're having is overvaluing your tournament life so far away from the money, it's higher variance but much higher EV.

It's not about my tournament life, it's about implied odds. If we're both sat here with 70bb stacks, I'm more likely to put money into the pot, because I actually have fold equity and implied odds.

The long and short of it is the person who is probably better than us both at tournaments (bean) thinks it's good. I'm more than happy to listen to anyone who wants to tell me it's bad if they give their reasons.

I'm way better at MTTs than cash games, especialy longer blind formats. Of course if this is a turbo, then call pre and c/jam flop, no problem. But when we have 20 minutes per blind level, we don't have to hurry, we can aford to pick our spots. This isn't a good one imo, not to try and push a shortstack utg of his hand when we actually have the odds to call profitatbly.

This spot is always going to be high variance, but no reason why we can't play 86s for a small profit (imo).

Pre has to be fine given pot odds. Even if we only continue with top pair and good draws, we'll be okay. Suited gappers will realise most of their equity.

Fold equity is key on flop. We have approx. 35% against overpairs and top pairs and need around 20% fold equity when we jam. If we increase our equity when called to 40% (i.e. villain calls off some AK) then we need close to zero fold equity. We should just about have that, but still high variance. I like this line best personally.

If we check call, then we're happy calling off 8/44 turn cards, hate life 8/44 diamonds (excluding 9d and 4d) and check fold everything else including 8x and 6x. The flop sizing puts us in a gross spot to check call, and that's before we think about tournament life.

The check raise as played - I don't mind it, as we should have some fold equity and equity when called. When we get jammed on though (which is likely often), we have to call off. We then end up putting in a lot of chips in the pot on the flop when we're behind. Check jam has to be preferable. I think you should have given up on that particular turn as played btw.

PS: this could all be horse shit. I'm only a $7 ABI player with 30% ROI this year mass tabling.

Originally Posted by bean

This spot is always going to be high variance

Not if we fold pre!

Pre has to be fine given pot odds. Even if we only continue with top pair and good draws, we'll be okay. Suited gappers will realise most of their equity.

How often are we making top pair with a hand like this? And how often is it good?

My problem is what else we're raising, too. We don't just have 86s here, we have a range, and we have to think about how we play ourr range here. We can raise our 8+ draws, hoping we have fold equity. But if we do this, we need to raise some value hands too, so what? Sets and AT? Is it not beter to trap the short stack with these hands? Considering I'm calling my value hands here, I don't se how I can bluff this spot. I'm not going to asume this guy isn't paying attention to my actions just because he opens KTo utg, he can totaly know that a raise is likely to be a straight draw rather than a ten or better.

And we're talking about fold equity when we're in great shape against the hands he can fold, while we're a 2:1 dog when he's hit the flop. If he has AK, facing a flop c/c, he probably checks back most turns. This is fantastic for our equity, since his hand is pretty much face up and we can call off on 6 and 8 rivers as well as jamming straights and backdoor flushes while also bluffing our 8 high with some frequency.

If we check call, then we're happy calling off 8/44 turn cards, hate life 8/44 diamonds (excluding 9d and 4d) and check fold everything else including 8x and 6x.

Why do we hate diamonds on the turn when we c/c? We hate life if he jams, since that's an overbet, but we can call a pot bet with direct drawing odds, so we're unlikely to get priced out. And why do we c/f 8 and 6 turns when we pick up more equity? Depends on his sizing, we can call half pot for sure.

c/c controls the pot, it means he has to overbet to gii on turn. If that's his plan, then calling flop is even better, since we stack him so easily when we have the nuts.

The flop sizing puts us in a gross spot to check call, and that's before we think about tournament life.

I disagre strongly here, his sizing makes c/c very appealling, because the pot remains under control. Had he bet much bigger, had he set up a turn shove, then I think we find ourselves in a gross flop spot where we have to fold or jam. His sizing makes call an option.

The check raise as played - I don't mind it, as we should have some fold equity and equity when called.

We'll have more fold equity on the river when we call flop, turn checks through, and he's looking at ace high. Meanwhile, we're giving ourselves the chance to outdraw his overpairs and Tx without getting it in bad. The fold qequity we have on flop is against hands we're in really good shape against, and that hate life when we call flop. The real equity we have can be realised by calling as well as jamming. So while I can maybe see jamming as being profitable, I really don't see it being as good as calling.

We realy don't have to raise every time we have an 8+ draw. We should be capable of calling and raising, and what we do should depends on how we would play the top of our range. I'm c/c'ing a set all day long here.

When we get jammed on though (which is likely often), we have to call off.

This is a very good reason to call flop.

I think you should have given up on that particular turn as played btw.

I definitely agree here Had we called, we're at the mercy of his turn sizing.

PS: this could all be horse shit. I'm only a $7 ABI player with 30% ROI this year mass tabling.

You're puttng in much more volume than I am. I've had good results this last year, cashing well above 50%, but I'm not playing often.

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 100 BB
SB: 170.5 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
BB: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
UTG: 200.5 BB (VPIP: 35.29, PFR: 29.41, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 34)
MP: 109.5 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
CO: 114 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 8 8

fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (7.5 BB, 2 players) 3 8 8
CO bets 7 BB, Hero calls 7 BB

Turn: (21.5 BB, 2 players) 4
CO bets 20 BB, Hero calls 20 BB

River: (61.5 BB, 2 players) J
CO bets 84 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 70 BB and is all-in

CO shows Q A (Flush, Queen High)
(Pre 44%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Hero shows 8 8 (Four of a Kind, Eights)
(Pre 56%, Flop 100%, Turn 100%)
Hero wins 194.5 BB

I hope you slowrolled river.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I hope you slowrolled river.

ye but only because i was busy typing it's so fucking sick how my 6 high flush always fucking busts on the river before i shoved.

You're like that guy on that clip I saw yesterday where he pulls a disgusted look and snap checks when he hits his one-card straight flush. I'd say it's an exploitable tell, but it might only be a holy fuck nuts tell, which is next to useless.

Ye because that's something I actually do....

Typing "wah wah" in the chat while the hand is stil active is the online equivalent of pulling a "fuck you river" face.

Would you say that if you had the six high flush and then shove? Of course not.

Couldn't decide whether I wanted to play the $3.30 bounty builder or not, saw there were 6max hyper sats running with two seats so thought fuck it I'll play that and if I get a place I'll play. I did and now I'm playing it and realised I have fuck all idea how much bounties should be affecting my decisions.

Thankfully I have knocked two people out and am top 200/3938 (3100ish left) but i'm thinking early on the chance to eliminate someone is huge, especially if they have an improved bounty but don't know how this changes as fewer people are left. I can only think a lot until the very latest stages of the tournament. At least then I'll be able to better calculate it.

I assume if you have a huge chip lead over small stacks we should basically be GII with ATC not that I will be adjusting anywhere near that much but seems correct. I dunno how that should change short stacking strat though, thankfully I imagine almost everyone is not adjusting and playing really bad so just by being aware and better than the field my edge is big?

I sometimes play bounty games but I don't think I adjust well. Calling shorties with ATC is fine if you're closing the action or opening sb vs their bb, and losing the pot won't be too much of a dent to your stack, but in of overall strategy, I really don't know if we should be taking risks to bust people early on.

I'm down to 15bb anyway, TT < JJ and 66 < TT in standard spots. The 66 was probably marginal, person before CO limps, I raise w/66 in CO, sb who is roughly 20bb (I'm 40+ish) deep banks and shoves and they have a reasonable bounty I think makes it a call but I've no idea.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I sometimes play bounty games but I don't think I adjust well. Calling shorties with ATC is fine if you're closing the action or opening sb vs their bb, and losing the pot won't be too much of a dent to your stack, but in of overall strategy, I really don't know if we should be taking risks to bust people early on.

At the very start I imagine it makes no difference at all because everything is the same. They seem to add a nice level of complexity to the game which is good as people can play worse and at the same time I think bounty games are much more casual friendly.

Meh 66 is fine, what you gonna do? Start limping? I guess you can fold a 4bb bet or whatever to a 20bb shove but yeah the bounty does play a role, especially given you have 20bb behind. I'd be folding that in an MTT though, having raised the limp.

I think this is an interesting spot. The jumps at the time are tiny they are like 30c and 100 people payout levels.

There is an afk player who posts his final ante and therefore is all in (though stars auto makes him lose the hand afaik if it was him v one other post). About 4 people limp into the hand, I'm in the BB and have roughly 20bb, 3/4 have me covered. The afk player has a bounty of >$2. I shove QJo. I think the chance to win that $2 when jumps are so low is so important that we can shove like everything here (especially if people aren't adjusting). 3 folds and the last limper calls with something like 94s. People on the table lol at him and call him an idiot. I think he should be snapping with anything as there was about $4 worth of bounty to win and he had us covered by a lot.

It turned out that player just calls everything full stop but he happened to be right that time.

I'm enjoying this more than a normal tournament purely as the bounties make things interesting and strange. Shame a 4 hour+ tournament run will net me like $5

GII w/99 like 24bb deep against a 15ish bb deep player with 77 and a 50ishbb player with AQ, A hits flop and holds.

Originally Posted by Savy

PokerStars, $200 + $15 - Hold'em No Limit - 250/500 (50 ante) - 8 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: 9,222 (18 bb)
UTG+1: 44,087 (88 bb)
MP: 8,016 (16 bb)
MP+1: 4,555 (9 bb)
CO: 31,532 (63 bb)
BU: 11,710 (23 bb)
SB: 14,881 (30 bb)
BB (Hero): 13,916 (28 bb)

Pre-Flop: (1,150) Hero is BB with 6♦ 8♦
UTG raises to 1,100, 6 players fold, Hero calls 600

Flop: (2,850) 5♣ 7♠ T♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets 1,150, Hero raises to 3,500, UTG calls 2,350

Turn: (9,850) K♠ (2 players)
Hero bets 6,895, UTG calls 4,572 (all-in)

River: (18,994) 2♥ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: 18,994

Showdown:
BB (Hero) shows 6♦ 8♦ (high card, King)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 40%, Flop: 37%, Turn: 18%, River: 0%)

UTG shows T♣ K♥ (two pair, Kings and Tens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 60%, Flop: 63%, Turn: 82%, River: 100%)

UTG wins 18,994

I think check raising flop here is pretty terrible

Thank you red. Now savy should go back through my posts and read my reasoning with the knowledge that a really good player agrees with me.

Or this little bit pretty much sums it up without having to read through all the bollocks...

We have so much more playability when we call. Raising just commits ourself to the pot with no fold equity when we're always behind. I don't see why we want to do that.

I might be wrong to fold pre flop, but it's at least close. There's nothing wrong with overfolding to a short stack, and these are the kind of hands we trim from our range when we tighten up.

Originally Posted by aka_red

I think check raising flop here is pretty terrible

because...

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Thank you red. Now savy should go back through my posts and read my reasoning with the knowledge that a really good player agrees with me.

Or ask the person why they think that because I've already explained to you the reasoning and why what you said was wrong.

...and why what you said was wrong.

I hope you had a wry smile as you typed these words. You told me I'm too ive in these spots, my reply was the I don't have a c/r range here at all, that you are too aggressive. If you think I'm wrong, then I can only guess you're not giving me any credit just because I'm ong and not red.

red is going to tell you basically what I said, only he'll be more concise. We have a great price to draw, we have playability against the part of his range that missed the flop, and we don't have enough fold equity to profitably shove, and if I'm wrong and it is profitable, it's not as profitable as peeling. That's before balance is a consideration.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I hope you had a wry smile as you typed these words. You told me I'm too ive in these spots, my reply was the I don't have a c/r range here at all, that you are too aggressive. If you think I'm wrong, then I can only guess you're not giving me any credit just because I'm ong and not red.

red is going to tell you basically what I said, only he'll be more concise. We have a great price to draw, we have playability against the part of his range that missed the flop, and we don't have enough fold equity to profitably shove, and if I'm wrong and it is profitable, it's not as profitable as peeling. That's before balance is a consideration.

PF is not close, I'm calling with any suited cards.

I also do not have an X/R range here. If I did it would be against a wide opener and aggressive cbetter who I thought would be over folding to X/Rs. And it would be basically only 64s, gutters, and QT

Flop raise is terrible because I don't expect to get enough folds with this small of an X/R against a range where he has a significant range advantage and is getting 3:1. Plus, when called and you don't improve (pair, FD, STR) you have half pot left and 8 high with some pot equity and probably no fold equity on most cards and especially Kx. Hands that you could hope to have bluffed like AQ/AJ now have a gut shot and if villain is loose enough to peel flop he's probably not folding turn. If you called flop and he had AJ and turn doesn't improve AJ and he checks back I assume you can win the pot often enough by leading river with a balanced range. In short risk is too great, reward is too small, hands you are hoping to bluff can be bluffed when they check back turn on river, and you almost never will play an actually strong hand (57, T7, T5, 55, 77) because you basically have the deck crushed against his perceived opening range and there are very few rollouts that will kill your action.

Yeah I said that I thought my sizing for the raise was bad I should have shoved if I was going to raise and that definitely isn't bad.

Originally Posted by Savy

After thinking about that hand we aren't deep enough for me to be pissing around with sizing on the flop I should just shove and max out my fold equity.

I may be underestimating the value of calling the flop.

Originally Posted by Savy

Yeah I said that I thought my sizing for the raise was bad I should have shoved if I was going to raise and that definitely isn't bad

Shoving is definitely horrendous. X/S is for 2x pot you probably don't have enough fold equity and are likely unbalanced, as it would be an awful way to play any sort of made hand (2PR, set, TP).

I was never really confident enough about pre flop to say I'm right and savy is wrong, but I had a strong inkling that calling flop was clearly optimal here, that raising is either worse than or barely better than folding. And I'm pleased to see you feel balance is an important factor here. My ideal way of playing my oesds and fds is the same as the top of my range... if that means calling, so be it. I can easily bluff when I brick if I played the hand the same as I do tptk. I really don't want to find myself in a situation where I only raise bluffs, because an astute villain is going to murder me.

Originally Posted by ong

My ideal way of playing my oesds and fds...

*on flop, I should have noted.